I think that your all nuts !

Nuts, or not, they do have a rudimentary grasp of grammar...

Good point GearHead

CEO LaPierre of the NRA runs a BUSINESS that seeks membership, collects yearly dues and membership fees. With out your support LaPierre would not be able to continue to live his lavish life style. LaPierre suggests putting a hired gun at every school consisting of professionally trained military and or law enforcement officers. I can not think of two groups of people that suffer more from mental health issues's then these two. Well documented statistics show that 50% or more of our soldiers returning home have mental health issues's. While are police officers on the other hand have a very stressful job often leading to mental health related issues's. Governor Scott Walker and the NRA made sure that Benjamin Sebena was guaranteed every right in the world to own , carry and shoot a gun. I'm not so sure that stationing a mentally ill person outside our schools to stop the mentally ill from getting into our schools is the answer to our problems.

Bill Clinton, your best buddy suggested the same thing back in the 90's. Funny how now it's all crazy and stuff to have protection.

It is funny that you mention open carry and each Counties differing rules. I had just checked into it myself. Some Counties (liberal) consider open carry on your hip a concealed weapon if you are in a car- the mindset is that it is not in plain sight if it is not on the dash.
What the Lyle's and Brian's do not seem to understand is the gang bangers carry illegally- already committing a felony before they ever use the gun.

Craig- I like my chances with a weapon, than not having one. That's what they don't get at all. Do you like your chances of being able to defend yourself, or would you rather cower in a a corner? I think Obama given the chance to send his kids to an unarmed school or an armed school, picks the armed school. Or given the chance to decide Secret Service or no Secret Service, he picks Secret Service.

Brian: Whether it is one armed gunman or ten armed gunmen, my chances are much better if I and/or others are packing. People who are comfortable with their weapon will make the proper decision if and when to use it. People who target shoot are more likely to hit their target- even if their target is shooting at them!
This is what differentiates law abiding citizens who exercise the right to carry from they typical non law abiding thugs. Concealed carry also has the advantage of surprise.
I like my odds a lot more than the limp wristed panty waist playing dead and/or hiding behind women and children.

I support legalization of marijuana as do the majority of Wisconsinites. DEMAND A REFEREMDUM TO PROVE IT.Pot heads are passive and none have been mass shooters now have they? We are not the greatest nation in the world anymore. WE are number one in numbers of person incarcerated, elderly persons who believe in angels (insanity) and defense spending. Fifty percent of persons in the federal prisons are drug criminals. About the same in WI state prisons with 80% of the state prisoners in for possession. The court just decided not to prosecute big banksters for laundrying drug money 1.4 trillion (To BIG TO FAIL) but we lock citizens away for possession. NOT LOGICAL TO ME AT ALL, free the little guys and legalize their drug of choice it's a hell of a lot safer than the legal prescribed shit you give your kid before you send him to school or your wife takes for depression or you for your social anxiety disorder.

v1- My point exactly. The argument has been to lift the ban on marijuana because making it illegal hasn't worked so well. Same with banning weapons, it didn't work so well from 1994 to 2004. It just proves the hypocrisy in the federal govrnment.

All dictators love a stoned, propagandized, disarmed slave pool of subjects to do their slave work. Like us volunteers for the Republican Party. Have you seen the votes from Ryan, Duffy and Johnson lately.

Brian Dey –

The only truth in your rambling and insanely inane dialog may be your name and membership in the NRA, which creates fear amid the populace for the sole purpose of selling more guns for their masters, the gun manufacturers. That guarantees that all these morally bankrupt cretins make more money on death and mayhem; after all is said and done, that is what it is all about: increasing gun profits.

All the rest is simply more fear mongering… [Just like your diatribe] Fort Hood had a ton of guns and hundreds of highly trained military service men and women. Yet the NRA gun nut killed 12 and wounded 31; yeah, I know, if only we would have had more guns on base…

Saturday is “National Gun Appreciation Day” and we really do need that! The problem is I just cannot find a rally, other than my local gun store of shooting range. Owing to the tens of thousands anticipated to attend this major, American changing event, the local police and Homeland Security personnel will also be attending to video tape and add to the extensive records of all these great American patriots.

Could one of you please inform me regarding just where ONE of these major groups will be?

1) I have my copy of the Constitution
2) I have my Bible
3) I have my American flag
4) I will be carrying my Glock 17 with my CCW permit

In addition, just so that I will be capable of giving all my gun-loving friends a great time, I will be bringing my M72 LAWS Rocket.

Hope to see you all there!

What is a guideline going to do? They already exist, as do gun laws.

Bren- There is no federal law generally prohibiting the carry of firearms by citizens for protection or other lawful purposes, with limited exception in the Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. Other statutes concerning Federal property such as military installations also address the carry of firearms. By tradition and as defined in the Constitution, laws describing the bearing of arms are exclusively the business of state legislatures. (Wiipedia)

Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution defines the right to bear arms as: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose." November 1998.

There is no parsing o the language in the State's Constituion and it is clearly defined. The Supreme Court determined that the definition of the right to bear arms should be executed through the 10th Amendment, leaving the definition up to individual states.

Bren, you are aware that states no longer have militias? Governor's lost control of the guard to Homeland Security. Mayors lost control of Police again to Homeland Security. I don't want regulations on gun ownership. NONE I want address of the causative factors of mass killings which is not being done at this point as the masses are being mislead. Does anyone need a gun with bullets that will enter and exit a body and enter the one behind? Why do you think some of the kids had so many bullet wounds? But You and I both just might wish we had those types of weapons if our economy crashes and civil war results and we have to protect ourselves from others. Is this psychologically unsound or did you forget to take your paxil, prozac, zoloft?

Greg, it's about accountability. Give people a few options for housing guns (offsite at shooting range, home in especially approved secure containment). If your gun is stolen and it wasn't in approved containment, you are complicit in any crimes committed with your gun. I'd say that would be an incentive not to keep the handgun in the sock drawer or top kitchen shelf.

Brian, I think every gun-related statute, local, state, federal, needs to be re-evaluated. The current system isn't working. That doesn't mean ban guns, it means re-evaluate the system.

vocal, if a second Civil War breaks out I agree (if I understand you correctly) that it will again be primarily about money (as most wars are). Let's do what we can to prevent it and support fair tax rates for everyone, including the wealthiest of the wealthy in our country. Reverting back to Clinton-era taxes won't ruin them, in fact the Clinton years were highly successful for big business.

Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft? Did the idea to include these products perchance come from a medicine cabinet near you? ; )

Infringe: Act to limit or undermine (something); encroach on.
Nelson Lund, J.D., Ph.D.:
Suppose the Constitution provided:
"A well educated Electorate, being necessary to self-governance in a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

This provision, which is grammatically identical to the Second Amendment, obviously means the following: because a well educated electorate is necessary to the health of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed. The sentence does not say, imply, or even suggest that only registered voters have a right to books. Nor does the sentence say, imply, or even suggest that the right to books may be exercised only by state employees. Nor does the lack of identity between the electorate and the people create some kind of grammatical or linguistic tension within the sentence. It is perfectly reasonable for a constitution to give everyone a right to books as a means of fostering a well educated electorate. The goal might or might not be reached, and it could have been pursued by numerous other means. The creation of a general individual right, moreover, would certainly have other effects besides its impact on the electorate's educational level. And lots of legitimate questions could be raised about the scope of the right to books. But none of this offers the slightest reason to be mystified by the basic meaning of the sentence. The Second Amendment is no different."

Bren -

Good comments, however, you are writing to the Pravda NRA indoctrinated crowd... nothing will ever change their immature emotional adherence to oblivion via violence and guns, as they are hopelessly addicted and no longer cognitively functional…

Supreme Court Justice Scalia in 2008 [5-4 decision] under the Heller Case has already established the right of individual citizens, outside of the military, do have the right to bear arms for the purpose of personal protection.

The caveat to his tortured and convoluted ruling [Scalia wrote the majority opinion] is that he further concluded that restrictions might be placed upon the types of weapons civilians may have and further restrictions regarding their acquisition, ammunition, etc. To be very candid here, Scalia, to the rational people in America is nothing more than Ted Nugent in a black robe. Given the current climate in America, I am sure the SC will be hearing further cases, clarifying many of the issues that we hear discussed daily in the media.

Incidentally, taking up arms against our government - which a miniscule portion of the NRA indoctrinated MAY perceive as tyrannical - is precisely the definition of TREASON...

Troy: My opinion is an armed cop in every school is not a big cost. Given that many times there are policemen and women working with the DARE program and are frequently in the schools for official business anyways, it may actually be less expensive than anticipated.
I don't think we have any other choice...
Even if we banned all guns for US citizens, the evil doers will always find a way to inflict their evil.
At a cost of $100k per cop per school, my community would see a gain of about $10 to the annual tax bill. I am not in favor of higher taxes unless there is a need- this is a case where the need exists.
I do not see anything working better. I have not heard of one proposal that would eliminate or reduce the risk immediately, other than adding police.

Let's pass more laws that cost millions or billions to accomplish and half ass enforce them while growing the government. Let's ban the purchase of products/services that generate income and sales tax revenue.

DARE is still going on? I thought that program was cut. Don't know where I heard that, so I was prob. wrong.

Cool. So Officers would run the DARE program and just stay on for security, also?

Troy: DARE still exists in my community with a couple officers dedicated to the cause.
I have a nephew who is a cop in the western part of the state who also does this in his area.
For troubled schools, I think a police substation would be a good addition.
In rural areas it would also spread police out rather than have them all in one location.
This is something that could be implemented immediately, while the wrangling over other ways to fix the problem will take years.
At least it is something...

Craig: I was not aware of that.

Yet another interesting idea...
(seriously - no snark there at all)

Troy, Please remember, Biden wrote the Patriot Act. I just read the poll numbers revealing a majority of Americans support greater control in keeping guns out of the hands of persons with mental health issues and out of the homes of persons with mental health issues. Americans also are supporting a federal registry. The first could seriously limit the numbers of homes with guns. If grandma moves in with alzheimers you can't have guns. If your grandchild lives with you and is on meds for adhd or autism, you can't have guns. If your wife's depressed, no guns. If you write honestly but sound like a social decedent you go on the FBI list of potential terrorist. The registry is dangerous. President Obama can by executive order order all Americans to register all guns in their possession including long guns and blk powder. Many will refuse and illegally maintain ownership if he goes that far. The govt. numbers on gun ownership are much lower than reality. Blame it on Obama not Washington as a whole that is running scared of the very persons that elected them as evidenced by the numbers of security attending them in all social contact.

@Craig ... The 40 S & W won't hold up to a semi auto rifle with a 30 round clip. Your out numbered 3 to 1 with the ammo and at any distance your toast.

Buckeye: The dozen rounds from a .40 S&W is sufficient, and the assault rifle with a 30 round magazine is not an advantage when the shooter is there to inflict as much damage as he can- chances are the conceal carry person will be at an advantage by element of surprise. At a distance of 100' or less I am confident most responsible conceal carry people would stand a good chance at stopping a mass murderer in an active shooting.

FTTroy: We are spending money on a program to fight the war on drugs and in my opinion we are not winning.
Why not put those same assets to fight the drug war to use in protecting school safety? Add a few cops to every school district as a means to protect from nutcases, and maybe we get the added benefit of reduced drug use as well.
I have to restate: I have not seen any other idea proposed to increase safety for schools that could start immediately.

How?

Dirk- What do you mean like living in Beirut? Chicago hit its 500th murder victim of 2012. They have been averaging over 500 each of the last 3 years, and the gun ban they imposed in 1982 has had no success. Living in the South side of Chicago is worse than Beirut.

Greg - I have found there is a certain element in society that actually would like to live in a gun toting, even warlord, landscape. These seem to be the losers in oneway or another in society. Lots of excitement, like a real live video game. From your many uber-extremist posts, is that you?
How to limit extreme gun violence? Restrict gun ownership in a Constitutional way.
Automatic weapons for the most part are banned, as are heavy munitions. When Lee Harvey Oswald ordered his gun through the mail from Klein Sporting Goods, that was made illegal. Later assassination attempts on Presidents were attempted. Background checks were initiated later. Assault weapons were banned for many years..After 911, real scanning and security checks at airports started. All of these and more were Constitutional in that they were never declared unconsititutional.
Reinstitution of the ban on assault weapons, with better definition, and banning of high capacity clips is just a part of the solution. I have specified other rational approaches in other postings on other Patch blogs. You can keep your shotgun and deer rifle, and so can I.

Interesting how these last public mass shootings all took place in gun free zones. The Aurora shooter choose a theater that was less populated, farther away because it was gun free. Competition is bad for their business.

Has there been any discussion from the rantings, writings or interviews of those we have been able to capture about the gun free zones?

It seems to be that is a great NRA Talking Point and it's only from these sources I hear it. Did Jared Loughner ever say he choice that mall parking lot for his assination attempt was because it is was a gun free zone?

And for those businesses that want to continue to have a gun free zone, are they going to have a gov. regulation over riding that? The gov. regulating a business... the horror!

Dey - Just imagine how bad Chicago woud be without the gun ban.

Dirk- Prior to the gun gun ban, the 20 yr average was less than 200 annually. Your point?

Dey - You obviously are not schooled in logic:. Chicago gun deaths are increasing. Guns are banned in Chicago. Therefore, gun bans do not work. F for you Dey.
I see a lot of commenters here that would fail Logic 101. You do not take into consideration other major factors, both inside and outside Chicago.
Chicago is an island in a growing sea of guns. Those guns are illegally coming into Chicago. Also, having lived there, Chicago has some extreme societal problems becoming more enhanced by illegal guns from outside its boundaries, such as gang warfare, war zone neighborhoods, and pockets of extreme poverty. That is why federal laws would help Chicago

Dirk wrote: "I am failing to see how a terroristic gunman is deathly afraid of an armed teacher/volunteer in a school, and even a policeman. After all, it is apparently a suicide mission to start with, either "suicide by cop" or by his own hand..."

It would just mean the shooter is taken out that much quicker, and hopefully with fewer casualties.

Dirk also wrote: "...Chicago is an island in a growing sea of guns. Those guns are illegally coming into Chicago...Chicago has some extreme societal problems becoming more enhanced by illegal guns from outside its boundaries, such as gang warfare, war zone neighborhoods, and pockets of extreme poverty..."

Which just proves unenforced guns laws do not work. Federal laws will not work either if they continue to go unenforced. Here's my proposal, enforce existing gun laws and if that proves less than 100% effective, then lets talk.

Something else to consider, gang members are cowards. If they think someone is armed, they are less likely to try something.

Finally Dirk wrote: "...Dey - You obviously are not schooled in logic:... F for you Dey.
I see a lot of commenters here that would fail Logic 101..."

Those commenters you reference typically make a more thought out and logical points than you do. You make your comments based on emotion some delusion that there are no evil people out there.

Brian, Craig, Steve and others have made some great point that you have yet to refute logically!!!

Dirk: Thanks for reinforcing my points. A deranged gunman is not afraid to die, therefore he will not pay attention when I reach into my pants for my .40 S&W and waste his useless ass before he runs out of ammo.
Now, Dirk. What part of that scenario is a problem for you?

Anti - You wrote "It would just mean the shooter is taken out that much quicker, and hopefully with fewer casualties." That is if the teacher or volunteer or rent-a-cop or even law enforcement officer gets off a good shot. It is one thing to go to the firing range and shoot at paper targets or go deer hunting. Paper targets and deer do not rapid fire shoot at you while you are taking careful aim. And then there is the crossfire or errant shot dangers. So just arming someone at the school is not going to necessariy prevent or slow the violence.
I have no arguments with strong gun law enforcement. That would start with the ATF having a real database to trace gun purchases, but the NRA opposes that. We need to give the enforcers the tools to go after the bad guys, like straw buyers. I was present when a new gun, still in its packaging, was found in a dead felon's bedroom. (heart attack). But the ATF refused to trace it,which is expensive and time-consuming,, because the gun was not involved directly in a crime. Who bought it for the felon? We will never know.
Logic is essentially a mathematical process, and has proven rules.. And you are trying to twist things 180 degrees by calling me the emotional one. It has to be an emotional gun nut that will not give up being able to buy a 100 round drum for his assault rifle.

Craig - Oh Craigy, you are so manly and brave (in your fantasies)! You are just like all these other gun advocates, you visualize yourself as some kind of hero, if only you could get the chance. Kind of like those joining the armed forces and going off to be heroic, and coming back dead or mentailly or physically impaired. Or playing video games. Statistics would show the .40 S&W will be more likely to kill or maim yourself or a family member, be stolen, and/or be used in a crime.

"Greg - I have found there is a certain element in society that actually would like to live in a gun toting, even warlord, landscape. These seem to be the losers in oneway or another in society. Lots of excitement, like a real live video game. From your many uber-extremist posts, is that you?"

Are you trying to say something Dirk? Are you asking a question Dirk? You say "Stop the madness" and then you live it. After reading your posts, I would bet that you would be profiled closer, to the lonely losers that have committed these shootings, then I would. Your emotion based posts do no service to the issues at hand.

Gutsbag: How many thugs go target shooting?
Who's hands would you put your life in: one who regularly target shoots, or one who uses the gun for crimes only?
How many cops practice shooting at targets while someone is shooting at them?
Wake up brother! Even you can not be that stupid.

Oh and Dirt; my .40 S&W will not be stolen, it is carried in my pocket always.

Dirk- I again point to the fact that the federal government is not the arbitor if I can own guns, or what types. The Supreme Court has already ruled that "the right to bear arms" is covered under the 10th Amendment, and in Wisconsin under Article 1, Section 25. And you know through all the evidence pointed out in this post and others that the so-called ban didn't work.

Again Dirk, unless you are prepared to have the gov't go dorr-to-door to confiscate weapons,no ban will ever work. The facts are there. Choosing to ignore them will not make your little ban any more productive.

Door to door?
From my cold dead hands !

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one." ~Vladimir Lenin

The question, Dirk, will people be a controlER or a controlEE? I am an expert shot, former Marine and am responsible for not only my own safety, but will also defend others from attack. Most police officers get little range time and are lucky to hit their targets.

The places you mention all have armed protection. I'm all for gun free zones as long as a trained officer or trained security is present.

Dey - If you hate gun free zones without an armed security force, do not go there if you are that afraid.

You're missing everything here Dirk. Just face it mass shootings happen in 100% gun free areas for a reason.

This guy can explain the rest to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fzKXrqdpbd4

Steve - Once again, you fail the logic test. First, all mass murders do not occur in gun free zones. As just a couple of examples, I would not call Ft. Hood or a village in Afganistan a gun free zone.
Second, correlations of gun using mass murderers to gun free zones are not proof that they are attracted to the location for THAT reason. Is there any proof of any mad gunman looking for the gun free zone sign and then saying "Oh boy, this is a great target" ?. Your linked video of someone acting like they are knowledgeable about what goes through a mass killer's mind and acting iike a gangbanger on steroids is pathetic and racist. No cred.

You're only back peddling Dirk. The Ft. Hood muslim terrorist act took place in a gun free zone of the base. Why do you think he got off so many rounds without challenge? Bet your liberal media didn't inform you of that fun fact. Oh and way to ignore that all mass shootings in the news have occurred in gun free zones.

So the vid I link is produced by a black guy now it is racist? How desperate are you? How racist are YOU? Debate the facts, the common liberal emotional terms no longer work. Come to the table with logic. We will not let you use these families pain for your own political gain.

See Dirk, typical reaction from a an anti gun. You see, I have a little thing called a "right". covered under the 2nd Amendment, And again under Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution on my side. My "right" is no different than your right to free speech. You just are fearful because you nothing about guns proven by the lack of knowledge or understanding of everything said. And yes, if you come on my propert or business and threaten harm, I have the right to shoot you dead. That is my right in Wisconsin. You don't like it, move to Illinois because that is the only state left that you can't. And illinois is doing so well in the area of preventing purposeful gun deaths.

In about 170 days even Illinois will have to recognize the 2nd amendment. A federal judge ruled their current laws are unconstitutional.

So will this training involve the same stressers as military basic training? I mean, is there another way to put oneself in a combat situation?

I know when I spoke to my father - a retired FB Coach and teacher, he said the last thing he got into teaching for was armed combat training. There was no way he personally would ever volunteer for something like that.

Its a sad day when when a teacher is hired for having a gun permit, and not necessarily the ability to teach, coach and counsel. And it is scary that some would then aspire to teaching so they can carry a gun around at school all day.

As someone else wrote here, first teachers are vilified, now they should become the sheriff of Dodge?

and all children & teachers should wear bullet proof vests in school ?

@Keith Best...You're playing "Chatty Cathy" again.

Lyle is denying reality, again.

I've read this post before. What laws did Adam Lanza break? We don't even know for sure that Adam Lanza was the shooter now do we? We don't know if he shot his mother. We were told that his body was found in the school with a gunshot wound to the head. NONE of the statements of the persons shot have been released. WHY NOT? The car with the rifle outside that Adam reportedly drove to the school was not Adams or his mothers? Did Adam even drive? There were reports from surviving teachers of more than one gunman, two shadows on the wall and reports of up to three other persons at the scene. The man that ran away in the woods who was placed in the front seat of a squad? The man on handcuffed on the ground and the unidentified man who drove away in a van. Like here in OC the FBI took all the evidence. Here the temple security video later was reported as not being on. In Newhaven FBI took his computer and reported it was too damaged by a hammer and screwdriver to retrieve any data. Lies, only heat will destroy a hard drive that badly. No mention of mom's computer, No medical or educational records on either. Here there were reports of four shooters. Here obviously Wade Page targeted and shot church leaders, one woman and no children was inferred, not proven to be a white supremacist and deduced as a hate crime. "IF" the temple shooting was a hate crime more women and children would have been shot is my take.

The civilian versions are manufactured differently so as not to be capable of automatic fire, not because they are different weapons or "milled differently" but because automatic weapons are illegal for civilians to possess. Numerous law enforcement agencies possess and use AR-15 derived weapons that are fully automatic.

There is no such thing as a ".223 long rifle" round, as far as I can tell. I think you are confusing that with the standard .22-cal. long rifle, which is a low-caliber, low-velocity, short-range round for plinking targets and very small game.

The .223 Winchester and 5.56mm NATO rounds are low-caliber, very high-velocity rounds capable of great penetration at up to medium range. Weapons chambering these rounds are capable of bringing down large game including deer – and may Wisconsin hunters use them for that purpose.

Moreover, .223 or 5.56 rounds were chosen for military and law enforcement use not only because they offer lower weight and a higher rate of fire but also because they possess great "stopping power" – their low mass/high velocity causes them to yaw after impact, in many cases producing significantly higher tissue damage than higher-caliber rounds that penetrate but do not yaw.

Here is a link from Guns & Ammo that illustrates that ammunition available to civilians and law enforcement for the AR-15 is actually more effective at stopping/killing a person than is that allowed to our own military. http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

http://m.youtube.com/#/user/MrColionNoi

This guy has an answer to every insane liberal, including our own Jim Price.

The .223. Round is a baby compared to what most hunters use. If you actually knew anything about guns you would not type what you just did.

Who needs what research?
What your low informed view defines an assault weapon is laughable. Come to the table when your "neutral" brain actually has some education.

Jim- I've don the research Jim. Obviously you have not researched the military definition of assault weapons. You are relying on what I belive is theWikipedia definition, which is the federal definition based on law, although I should have used "capable of" before "fully automatic." Even the federal definition doesn't define or limit the caliber to .223, so your definition isn't accurate.

Yes there are many versions of the AR-15 by various manufacturers, however Colt des holdthe existing Armalite patents. And milling is the maching of in the manufacturing process which I clearly explain is so the civilian version is not capable of fully automatic.

As to your claim that here is no such thin as a .223 long rifle, that is totally false. Any rifle with a barrel of 20" or longer is considered by definition a long rifle. The .22LR is a .22 long range ammunition, and accepts ammunition with higher grain counts. The LR doesn't stand for long rifle. The civilian AR-15 comes standard as a 20" barrel, thus making that version a long rifle.

There are 14 states that you cannot legally hunt whitetail deer with a .223. Althoug a majority of states don't allow .223 for elk, bear or moose which I included in my stats above. The .223 is on the low spectrum of caliber range, wit only the .17 and .22 lower. Actually, one ofthe main reasons the M-16 accepts .223 rounds is because AK-47's accept .308 which are more costly. Do some more research befor you rip on mine.

Jim ... neutral? I suspect not, unless you intend to thoroughly review each blog post to scrutinize the information as you attempted in this one.

I've read many posts that were inaccurate, yet you were disinterested or neglectful in addressing the questionable material. Why is that?

Dim "whits." Awesome!

I don't own a gun. Because I don't have a gun or bullets, I can't take aim and fire. So I suggest that guns might be part of the problem...

vl1- Totally agree on the mental health drugs and that is why I call for a mandatory reporting by doctors of patients prescribed any medication with warnings of "suicidal thoughts" or hallucinations as side effects. Most of these drugs are stimulents and anti depressants, as well as Chantix, Ritalin, Aderall, Vyvanse and are prescribed for ADHD, ADD, depression or as in Chantix, for quitting smoking.

@Brian Dey....So you're a pharmacologist and physician now? Your attempt to divert attention away from the actual issues involving "red herring" arguments directed at medications is a low point, even for you.

What you are failing to recognize is that the libertarian pro-gun lobby have stepped into the pile of crap of their own making. This is going to result in banning certain firearms, limiting ammunition magazines, much more stringent background checks, and more complete firearms training. However, I am going to work to push even harder to place more stringent limits.

I want firearms titled and registered. I want to see a bi-annual registration fee paid to renew the registration of legal firearms. I want to criminalize sales of firearms that don't have their titles transferred and re-registered. I want to criminalize the act of not reporting a stolen firearm to the appropriate authority. I want the sale and purchase of ammunition to be tied an active registered firearm and to limit the amount of ammunition that can be sold. I want to see brass recycled and turned in when ammunition is purchased. I want to see regulations that limit ammunition purchase to only the number of empty brass that is turned in for exchange. I want to see all legal firearms limited to five round magazines or five rounds per loaded and active firearms. If you can't limit the number of firearms, then you certainly limit the ammunition. The more you crap in your nest the worse it will be.

Lyle, your "wants" will not usurp my 2nd amendmant rights. Period!
Your latest rant sounds like a three year old. Were you banging your spoon on the table as you were keying this? Good grief!

5 shots? Even most wheel guns have six. Are you gonna plug the extra to make Russian Roulet more challenging? For heavens sake, put down the bong!

As for returning brass, it is clearly evident you haven't been on a range in a long time. Ejected cartridges from semi-auto firearms fly all over the place. Am I supposed to crawl onto the active range to retrieve them? Or put a grass catcher on the side of my weapon? This was perhaps one of your most ridiculous posts ever.

Heil Lyle!!! Maybe you should review the rulings on the 2nd Amendment, and then read Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, along with the previous rulings by the Supreme Court placing th right t bear arms on the states via the 10th Amendment. You are exactly the anti gun nut I wrote about.

Banning the tools and not the monster is precisely why no previous ban ever worked. The pile of crap is people like you that think it is a women's right to kill her baby, but want to trample on an actual right. Your medications and over identification of pyschosis is the biggest problem in this country and so are the medications you prescribe all in the name of poketing a few bucks is what needs to stop.

Be prepared Lyle, because this is the Civil War brewng that I talked about. You lame excuses for overprescribing stimulants and antidepressives has created overstimulated men, women and children. The over diagnosis of ADDD and ADHD in our kids has created a generation of pill taking kids all inthe name of profits for your type so you can buy the big old house in Shorewood.

Go for it Lyle. I have the law of the land to back up my right. Should idiots like yourself succeed in any ban, it will be challenged. Apparently the lesson's of Hitler haven't reached your soft generation of your ethnicity living inthe US. Ask those in the homeland what happens when guns are stripped from the people..

@ Lyle: thou dost protest too much, me thinks. Are you on prescription psychoactive drugs, as well? I only ask, because guns were not the only commonality amongst these mass shootings; psychoactives were present in all most, if not all cases, as well. Brian is spot on with his suspicion of the over-medicating of today's youth (with drugs that even the manufacturers cannot tell you how they work, or how they will affect any given individual), coupled with the permissive "self esteem" nature of today's society, and the callousing nature of the overabundance of Hollywood culture and violent video games. The availability of guns has not changed in this country since well before the 1940's (it has become more difficult to acquire in many instances), it is the culture that has changed. Personally, I believe these factors confound each other...but the "progressives" only want to attack one of the many. Maybe, it's because they have been outstanding proponents of all the others. Hmmm...now there's something to ponder.

@Brian Dey...I am not calling for the ban on firearms, but much tighter regulation. I am fully familiar with the 2nd amendment and you have quoted the Wisconsin State Constitution. It may be that we'll have to amend both the 2nd amendment and the Wisconsin Constitution to bring them into the new reality of the 21st century. It appears that you and others are denying this new reality and the changes needed. We are now living in a nation of over 311 million people, much different environment when the constitutions were written.

As far as banning firearms instead of the monsters who use them is slightly misdirected. We need to do both. The control of who has access to firearms is only the beginning. The more complicated issue is mental health accessibility and effective treatment. There are no simple answers and it will require huge amounts of rethinking and funding to begin to adequately address the mental health issues.

I am calling you out on your "red herring" regarding the introduction of abortion. It has absolutely nothing to do with the firearm issue, except that firearms have been used to assassinate abortion providers.

As far as my "soft generation" living in the US not being aware of the actions of tyranny is an argument that is not going anywhere. You know nothing about the people you're referring to. The idea that I have personally profited from providing mental health services to those in need, is not only wrong but defamatory in nature. (continured)

@Brian Dey (continued)...I have actively opposed the over medication of anyone. The public school systems have been primarily responsible for the misdiagnosis and over prescribing of psychoactive medications for students, placing them into a chemical straight jacket. However, you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. After careful diagnosis and a well monitored treatment program, psychoactive drugs are useful.

You keep talking about the coming civil war as if this is something you are actually looking forward to. I have been to a number of war zones and this is not something that should be talked about lightly nor cavalierly. This type of speech shows exactly how extreme you really are. Perhaps if you would have served in the military you wouldn't be so quick to jump on armed conflict.

As far as guns being stripped away from the citizens, nothing like promoting fear to advance your position.

Lyle- I am right with you that the process should be to amend the Constitution, not by legislative mandate or Presidential decree. If you are going to try to strip rights away, it must go through the Constitutional amendment process, meaning adoption of 75% of the states through citizen's vote. and I believe this part is correct adoption in the affirmative of the Senate and House by two thirds. The President has no say in the matter. Go through the correct process and win, and I will honor any laws passed. That is how we do things, or should. then nothing is left to interpretation and it can be clearly defined by the will of the people. I think had the process been followed in the abortion issue, you would not have the divide you have today. That is the context for which I bring up the "red herring" in this debate.

With regards to the mental health issue, I don' understand your passion for not having mandatory reporting of certain treatments for which prescribed drugs with clear warnings of "suicidal thoughts" and "may cause hallucinations" should not be reported to the FBI. Seeing as how all firearm purchases must go through the FBI, wouldn't it make sense that drugs with these known side effects be reported as to who is using them? It is cause for immediate medical discharge from the armed forces if it is found out that you are taking these drugs; prescribed or not.

cont...

Lyle- cont...

The overmedicating of our youth is at epic proportions. I am happy to hear that you are against this, but the reality is that it is happening more and more. I have a personal experience with this one as one of my children fell in t the hands of one of these so called pill pushers. My son at age 6 was diagnosed as having ADHD. He was deemed overactive and his grades were poor. We took him to a local psychiatrist and he presribed Aderall at 5mgs. We asked how we would know if the medication would work and he stated that our child would be more focused and thus the indicator would be his grades.

A month later we came back. Nothing changed in his behavior. The dosage was upped to 10mg, and then 15, and then a change in medication and dosage 14 times. During this time, this so called doctor never had lab work done, not even a blood pressure check as ps prescribed for monitoring of dosages. He never told us he should seek counseling and led us to believe that he was the counselor.

We finally put an end to the madness after eighteen months. Through testing in school, we found out our son was gifted and he proceeded to take advanced classes. He didn't have ADHD, he was simply bored because the work was to easy. Sadly, this so called doctor sees 15 patients a day (mostly children and teens) for about 10 minutes, wries a scrip at $150 per visit once a month. That's $45k per month. cont...

Lyle- cont...

Some of these scrips cost upwards of $200 per month. Even the ones where the diagnosis is correct, can't afford these when they become adults so they simply stop taking them. Either way, it is not a good scenario. And the sad part is, many insurance don't cover these meds or only partially.

And just because I am not Jewish means I know nothing about them. In Israel, they take rights and violence a lot more serious than we do. Everyone is required some military service. Teachers carry weapons openly in classrooms. For as much as we read about the bombings and conflict, more purposeful deaths occur each year in Chicago per annum. More inNew York per annum. More in Los Angeles per annum. Our streets in our big cities are worse than those in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. They live under the constant fear of another holocaust where neighboring countries call out publicly for their extermination.

As far as the possibility of civil war; I neither want it or call for it. But you must face the facts that the divide in this country is approaching the divide of the first civil war. Websites are popping up all over with talk of armed conflict to protect rights or because of overtaxation. Look at the whole Occupy movement and the violence that surrounded it. A boiling point is approaching. You got people preparing for it. You can close your eyes to it, but that doesn't make it any less real. Do think that people in the late 1800's thought of civil war?

Lyle- cont...

You know nothing of my background with regards to the military. While I didn't serve in the military, I served the military in other capacities. My organization sent thousands of care packages to troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I set up and hosted many support the troop efforts, including rallies that drew thousands to counter the lefts attacks at our troops early on in Vietnam type atmosphere.

I have been honored by the 445th Airwing, the 440th Airwing, the 128th Air National Guard and the 51st and 122nd division of the U.S. Army for my work. During the Persian Gulf War, I wanted to enlist, but due to a prior back surgery could not get medically cleared. Many of my friends were lifer's, my father served and my son served. I apoligize if I din't meet you definition of serving.

As for the fear, like I said, the only effective ban would be to confiscate all banned weapons. Many on here have pointed that out so I will restrain from further banter.

@Brian Dey....I consider the experience you had with your son as horrifying. I understand that this happens all too often. I won't go into all the problems with the mental health situation, but let me say this; there has been too little attention paid to mental health services and it has been continuously underfunded creating conditions where we have too few resources to address monumental problems. I was forced out of practice because, when I was active, I couldn't support my family. That's why I went into business. Ultimately the problems will be solved once we go with an NHS making Rxs affordable and available for those who need them.

My issues with reporting to the FBI is the problem with what information is reported, how it's reported and what are the unseen consequences of such reporting. What guarantee do we have that this information won't be used against people for purposes for which it was unintended. The other issue is. who will determine the conditions that should be reported that will make cessation of constitutional rights without due process? It might be possible to report such conditions if they were not reported directly to the FBI but to another institution such as the CDC, with the CDC reporting the requested information to the appropriate governing authority.

The conditions that could or would leave to another civil war are not the same as the conditions that were present prior to the first civil war. (continued)

@Brian Dey (continued)...Protection of perceived rights or conflict over taxation is not sufficient to take such actions. We have due processes to follow in order to change conditions that we find onerous. However, we have to allow that due process to work and mediate our own positions away from extremes. Unfortunately people are all too easily manipulated to accommodate the wishes of the power structure to maintain their own power and position. Whether we like to admit it or not we do live in a plutocracy. The conditions, where a segment of the population is armed to the teeth, the fact that ideological perception is so easily manipulated, creates conditions where those who are so armed are ready to take armed action against those who differ in their ideologies. I don't hear the liberal left calling for the purchase of guns and ammunition in preparing for an upcoming civil war. It is the extreme right that is calling for such action. So there is a fear in the left thinking that private arms could be turned against them. Therefore, the desire of the left to limit firearms and ammunition sales is entirely understandable.

I appreciate your work for supporting our citizens who are serving. I would like to see equal effort put into supporting the veterans. There is a much greater need there and it is woefully being under served. The mental health needs alone are monumental and we have too many returned veterans walking around as ticking time bombs. (continued)

@Brian Dey (continued)...I reference the recent murder of the Tosa police officer by her Marine husband, suffering from PTSD. In my mental health practice I dealt with many Vietnam vets who self medicated with drugs and alcohol. Estimates now indicated that around 40% of all Vietnam vets suffer some form of PTSD. This has been a problem that's been with us and will only continue to grow the longer we ignore it.

Your reference to conditions in Israel and the subsequent actions are like comparing apples to oranges. Israel has a population of roughly 8 million compared to the US with 311 million. Our situation here is nothing like those in Israel and Israel's solutions will not work here. Israel is under attack, not from its citizens, but by religious and political extremists. Their solution is to create a lock down state for a very small nation. I am concerned about the conditions there since my daughter is due to begin her rabbinic studies there next year.

Finally, the conditions that led to the Vietnam anti-war movement have not been present during the past two wars. I think you and others have completely misread the situation and making a problem where none seriously existed.

Lyle- My only suggestion about mandatory reporting to the FBI is because they are the current avenue of background checks and I support this position only for the purchase of firearms. Th FBI is the final arbitor to whether a person can purchase a firearm legally. I understand your concerns and that sentiment of fear lies in some of the gunowners who posted here about if they have to license, who will see it and what it will the info be used for. There is somewhat of a paradigm, which seems to be fear, on both sides, however for different reasons.

With regards to conditions for a civil war, please understand that I wish for it, or agree with those that have that sentiment, I only report those conditions to the extent that there is that sentiment out there. There is a sense amongst those that believe it is coming because since the Civil War, we have not seen this kind of divide in the country and it is only getting worse. Maybe if we actually went through the process when we address the beliefs of rights, would we get more buy in. Many Democrats believe health care should be a right, however, to truly be a right, it needs to go through the Constitutional process to amend. That wasn't done before the mandate of the Affordable Care Act and we have a huge divide on the issue. Same with abortion. That is why any of these gun bans or restictions needs to follow the amendment process.

cont...

Lyle- cont...

I agree with your assessment on PTSD. One only has to look to the recent ambush in Wauwatosa. I'm horrified that Obama is cutting the TriCare budget, as well as the budgets of the Veteran Hospitals. Defense cuts are one thing, but cutting the aftermath care ro our returning troops makes no sense.

As we transition to ending the War in Afghanstan, our organization will change its focus to returning soldiers, however, there is still need for what we do.

There are some cities in the United States that have murder ratesthat exceed those of Israel and Beirut. Consider this. Based on the percentage of murders compared to population size, Milwaukee's murdr rate is identical to Chicago (.00016 of the population is murdered each year). Your daughter is in our families thoughts and prayers.

And for the record, in 2002 there were many anti-war demonstrations and a Hollywood crowd whose slogan was "Not In Our Name", referencing that the troops were not fighting for them, that was led by the leftwing extremists MoveOn.Org. Signs at these demonstrations referred to our troops being baby killers, protests turned violent, etc... There were a few in Milwaukee, mass demos in Washington D.C. and New York and California. We countered with "In Our Name" rallies to show visual images to our troops overseas that there was stron support for them and their mission.

@Brian Dey....We share a concern for our veterans and I am as appalled by the funding cuts as you are. It is my hope that we as the State of Wisconsin will step up and help fill the void made be the federal government. Again the DoD is putting bombs and hardware ahead of the needs of the veterans.

From the time that Bush's intentions were known about the invasion of Iraq, I thought it was a wasted war and put the mission in Afghanistan at risk. What kept the nation from getting caught up in anti-war demonstration as we saw in the late 1960s and early 1970s was that their was no universal conscription. That was the impetus for the former anti-war movement. I could care less what Hollywood types do.

I don't see any of the issues surrounding abortion and the 2nd amendment going through the amendment process anytime soon. Even if it could go through the congress to be ratified by the states, I don't think it would be possible to get any ratification necessary to amend the constitution. It clearly comes down to red states verses blue states and the red states outnumber the blue states by quite a large margin.

There is absolutely nothing positive that could come out of an armed conflict between the right and left. It would drive a stake directly into the heart of this nation. While we fought out our differences, the rest of the world would move on, leaving us as nothing more than a devastated nation. I hope that those on the right will pursue more rational ideology.

The only law that I can see us changing is the wait period for gun purchases. Make the purchase of any firearm, handgun, long gun, black powder have a 7 day waiting period. It seems insane when I have to wait 48 hours to take possession of a handgun, yet can buy a rifle, high capacity magazines and a case of ammo and walk out the door after a 10 minute background check.
Other than that just enforce the laws on the books. As others have pointed out look at the shining star of Chicago for the poster child of gun control......

@Jason J....In the first place, the drug war has been an absolute failure and only increased crime. We need to legalize drugs and clear out the non-violent criminals from our jails and prisons.

Criminalizing certain firearms and ammunition will certainly create a black market for those who are unwilling to follow the law. However, loss of firearms and huge fines, independent of incarceration, will provide a deterrent for the legitimate shooter. I am not calling for banning firearms, but to more closely regulate them.

So if I understand you correctly you are saying decriminalize major felonies and let violent drug dealers and offenders out. And also violate the 2nd amendment and harass legal gun owners thus making many would be honest hardworking law-abiding citizens turn into criminals due to them wishing to keep or enjoy something that they hold close.
Sounds like the drug war with a different twist. Most time Lyle you have some valid points but this absurdity coming from you makes me think that a juvenile child hacked your account or something.

@Jason J....I never said let violent drug dealers out of prison, but only the people that are incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. What you call perfectly law abiding citizens can continue that by observing the law. Simple choice.

Wow Lyle, you amaze me with your sheep like mentality. Your dreams and desires as related to gun control take on a whole realm of insanity. I for one would take my chances and be a illegal gun owner, no need to pay a twice yearly tax on my gun just so Lefties like you can support the criminal class even more with my money.
I also can't see many cops wanting to risk their lives to try to confiscate what were legal guns from peoples houses. I think your thoughts and ideas would nearly start a civil war.
Why not focus on just those with current illegal guns... Oh wait they vote democrat. Just like other dictators, the left with Lyle leading the charge refuse to let a tragedy slip past without using it to further their agenda.

@vocal local 1....What is your source of expertise? Are you legitimately claiming to be neural scientist or even a psychiatrist? I also have a long history involving psychotropic drugs and I am fully aware of the harm they can do if misused or prescribed for the wrong condition/s. As far as causing permanent damage, this is going to be a hard claim to validate. I honestly don't know what you mean by normal since it isn't a definable state and represents something else entirely. For those that have a certain level of brain dysfunction present from birth, psychotropic drugs allow them to function within a range of normalcy.

I do agree with you about illicit drugs except for cocaine, which with long term use results in psychosis. I am all for legalizing drugs, regulating the manufacture and distribution and to humanely maintain the drug addict.

Lyle says: "I also have a long history involving psychotropic drugs..."

No argument here. Thanks for the admission. It's the first step towards recovery.

Yes Keith, I feel your hate. Embrace the dark side and your journey will be complete

@vocal local 1...You have no idea what my level of knowledge is. As an ex-psychotherapist my goal was always to medicate only as much as needed to be effective. This is the proper position that professionals hold. Whether or not an individual is on life long medication is dependent on their condition and the medication efficacy. Most young people who are prescribed psychotropics for control of ADHD and/or ADD are off of them by the time they reach adulthood. People that suffer from bi-polar disorders, psychosis such as schizophrenia, chronic dysfunctional depression, chronic obsessive compulsive disorders and a variety of anxiety disorders, may find that they will require lifetime medication to control the dysfunction. However, neuro-pharmacological research is constantly being conducted to find compounds that have higher efficacy, at lower doses and fewer negative side effects. In addition, medication rarely proves to be the only solution, but psychotherapy is needed also. This is no different an approach than is used on others who have chronic conditions such as Type 1 diabetes.

The way I see it is guns don't kill anymore people than liberals and lefties do. They voted for Obama, he has been using drones to kill and assassinate people from afar for his entire presidency. He has kept Gitmo open and he has not taken us out of Afghanistan as he said he would. How many lives has he cost in total?
Besides the Azana shooter was a Democrat, makes you wonder if there is a grand conspiracy. Like terrorists use the mentally ill, and mentally challenged for suicide bombers, is the left using them to be mass shooters to further their agenda? Just saying.....

@Nobama ... Why don't you ask for all the pictures of the dead children that were riddled with bullets many being hit up to eleven times. You talk with a paper asshole.

I'm with you NObama 2012. And the FBI is the cover-up agency, only I don't strictly hold Obama accountable. It's past that point it doesn't matter anymore which party is in power. GOVT CANNOT BE TRUSTED AT ANY LEVEL is my take. Bucky, you bring up some interesting points worthy of discussion. Would you bury your child without seeing them in the flesh no matter how bad they were injured? I couldn't and wouldn't. I don't know if the parents insisted and if any of them were allowed. I was also sickened by information on the bullets used. I read the type of bullet used ripped thru one childs body into those behind which was the reason so many of the children were shot up to eleven times. I oppose all gun restrictions at this time but seriously question if the general public needs that kind of fire power. On the other hand if we crash and if we move into a civil war or civil unrest and we must protect ourselves from roving bands I'd not want them restricted. Were not living in the best of times. America in decline and little we can do about it.

Liberals are a cancer on this country.

Well ... in fact I do. I'm not sure what in my post unnerved you, but I'll respond to your reply.

If people need medication because they are mentally unstable, and if you are correct that they are still a danger to the public, they should be institutionalized until we have a reasonable certainty they can safely interact with the general public.

I am not opposed to legalizing drugs that are currently illegal. I am tired of funding the rehabilitation, medication, counseling, and family support of those individuals that are irresponsible when they use legal and illegal drugs. When people can be held accountable for the result of their choices ... I say let 'em do what they want, without penalty. I know many people that responsibly accept the result of their choices in life, I know many more that become a burden to the rest of us because they are unable or unwilling to accept the responsibility for their actions.

As far as the OJ case, or too big to jail ... I think the public saw the weakness in the jury system, and I don't think anyone is too big to jail. Any that break the law need to penalized to the extent that it will curtail that behavior, bankers are no exception.

I never suggested anything about little people ... are they breaking the law?

@vocal local 1....Who said that I don't know the biological and physiological impact. In any case each case is different and requires different action. I am not saying that there hasn't been abuses and I oppose those abuses vehemently.

As far as coming up with the correct diagnoses, that means doing it right. The correct process requires, physicals, psychological testing, long hours of observation and then, if needed, a drug regimen that is well monitored and adjusted as needed.

I do love people and the land, I dislike people who pass judgement on those who have different tastes then them. Like You Dominic, I don't judge you on your tie dye t shirts, your sandals with socks look, your religion or your sexual persuasion. No need to hate .

Dominic- Most gunowners, at least the ones that hunt, are some of the best conservationists. Ducks Unlimited has preserved more wetlands then almost every conservationist group combined. Most are law abiding people who are only exercsing their Constitutional right. As someone who was in the military, your job was to defend the freedom and rights we all enjo, including the right to bear arms. I thank you for your service, but please understand, you are lashing out at the wrong people and should be lashing out at the bad guys who cause these massacres.

People want to blame this on something because, if they can't, then they have to accept that there really is no way to prevent situations like this. Which there isn't. So you've got people blaming guns and the NRA and such and then, in response, you've got gun owners blaming other stuff, like this.

I'm going to throw this out here one more time and then, personally, I'm done with this topic. It comes from an interview I heard on NPR. Take from it what you will.

Over the past few decades, there have been on average 20 mass shootings per year with an average of 150 casualties per year. Over that same period of time, the average number of people killed in one on one gun confrontations per year has been 15000. Considering all the discussion, the legislation introduced, that enacted and repealed, the different parties in power, the ups and down in the economy, the changes in mental health treatment methodologies, etc, etc, etc - those figures have pretty much remained constant.

Stop hammers, now!

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/03/FBI-More-People-Killed-With-Hammers-and-Clubs-Each-Year-Than-With-Rifles

Thank you for your service!

Thank you...
and by the way, thank you for your service.

Just a side note that the approval rating of the NRA is identical to the approval rating of Obama. Although, the disapproval rating is 46% for Obama and 38% for the NRA. This according to Real Clear Politics avgerage of a 54% approval rating for both.