@CowDung...Whatever positive benefits that RTW may have offered has been made moot by NAFTA

@Bren...To this day I still can't figure out why anyone wouldn't choose to organize. It is the only way to meet corporate greed and malfeasance head on.

Capitalism has failed you both

"@Bren...To this day I still can't figure out why anyone wouldn't choose to organize. It is the only way to meet corporate greed and malfeasance head on."

Well, they did! And they created government and entrusted it to be honest, set fair rules, and enforce a level playing field upon all.

Then, government found it had massive power, and democracy came - and people found they could vote their paychecks. Now government is a massive failed corporate monoploy that is destroying the people that created it. Government employees elect the officials that promise to give them more - and it's somehow legal!!!

Government employees should not be allowed to vote. PERIOD. Government needs to end the oppression, tyranny, and cronyism.

Lyle:

What reason do you give for justification of public sector unions? Certainly corporate greed isn't the issue there....

@CowDung....Government employees unionized and need unions for the same reason that any other group needs to organize. For state workers it is primarily for work place rights and conditions. Believe it or not, there is a great deal of managerial abuse that goes on within the state system.

Bob, Governor Walker's changes have been in place less than two years. And during those two years, your side has done nothing but whine complain and riot, I mean protest. Looking at the factors that contributed to Forbes final ranking are:
#35 in Business Costs
#39 in Labor Supply
#30 in Regulatory Environment
#29 in Economic Climate
#43 in Growth Prospects
#10 in Quality of Life
( http://www.forbes.com/places/wi/ )
The top 4 are factors that have been years in the making, and they will be years in the un-makeing. Even Lyle states in the blog portion: "... In the first place, Indiana’s RTW laws haven’t been in force long enough to accurately judge if they have made any difference at all to attract businesses to the state..."

While Governor Walker has made a good start, the problem goes much deeper. Businesses need to have the confidence that if they move here, or even start up here, that they can operate in a business friendly environment that will allow them to grow.

Unfortunately, Governor Walker is not able to print a bunch of money and throw it around like the feds do!

Anti,

My side would agree with you. And if you'd followed my link instead of copying and pasting the same thing you posted somewhere else, you would have found this....

"A look at Forbes’ seventh annual ranking of the Best States for Business indicates that Snyder is on the right track: There is a clear separation between right-to-work states and those that are not. All but one of the top 10 states have right-to-work laws on the books (No. 5 Colorado is the exception). Of the bottom 10 states, No. 46 Mississippi is the only right-to-work state. Forbes’ top 10 states expanded their economies 1.7% annually on average (net of inflation) during the challenging five years between 2006 and 2011. The bottom 10 contracted an average of 0.1% a year during the same period."

Bob, glad you follow my comments that close. I didn't mean to jump all over you. Yes, I did post a very similar comment on the "Gov. Scott Walker Says He Won't Pursue or Reject Right-to-Work" blog. My editing job didn't get the review I normally give it.

The point still remains that, while Governor Walker has given us a great start, we have a loooooooooong way to go. Your quote from the Forbes article indicates the right idea, we need to look at the states at the top end of that list and mimic what they are doing.

Of course, this will ignite an anti-ALEC rampage from Bren, but that just makes for good entertainment.

@Bob McBride...Do you think this is a good enough topic to get the 'Friday Night Fights' going?

Sorry...missed the comment last night, Lyle. On any other Friday (due to obvious circumstances), perhaps. However, I think it's also dependent on some things we have no control over, like the presence of PMS served up a side order of Toyota flambé, for instance.

@Steve...No AFL-CIO talking points, I have no idea what they're saying. You are not answering why we should allow workers to get union wages in an open shop and do not have to negotiate separately for their wages, benefits and working conditions. Just to clarify for you, the RTW states were playing catchup from 2000-2010, but they started nearly 15% behind non RTW states. Bureau of Labor states that you are wrong about compensation and in reality the non RTW states mean compensation is actually $1500 per annum.

Source I quoted says that came from the BLS. They are wages, period. It is not right to make someone pay into a union, especially when they have become a wing of the Democratic Party. The games and unfair practices the unions have played for years is coming to an end. Working in the Chicago area taught me how filthy they all are.

RTW will force them to compete in the free market place. If they offer a product the worker wants, they will survive. Simple as that.

All of these points are well and good. My question is if we all need to collectively bow down and thank the Zombie Jewish Carpenter because of their grace and favor of allowing us a low paying job to ensure their profits (collectively corp. profits are sky high compared to wages) remain the highest in decades, then what should be done about cost of living? If wages don't keep up with cost of living and working poor sky rocket, what does this mean for our culture as a whole? More food stamps to suppliment the income too low to survive? I doubt that idea will go over well on this blog.

What realisticall can be done about cost of living if wages need to remain low???

@FreeThought
Where should wages be? Why does a business owner need to increase pay when it is government action that is causing the inflation in the cost of living? Lastly, if no one worked for the guy that paid poorly, that guy would need to raise his wages?

Bob - I am unsure I understand...

I was under the impression there were jobs available in the state but not enough workers with the skilled training to fill them.

Doesn't this fly in the face of the claim it only takes a couple of semesters or 6 mo. Or is your point workers here need the couple of semesters? If so, isn't there a question of tuition?

Troy, my point is that even if you look at the number of jobs gone wanting in this state, supposedly, due to a lack of qualified applicants, the numbers always mentioned only amount to 20-30K people. The skills being asked for, generally, are of a nature that can be learned in a couple of semesters and solidified as relates to the specific company in question in a matter of about 6 months on the job. These would be equipment/task specific positions with related, essentially technical, education. Not a couple of semesters of general education or degree related work at a university.

I have no idea what you're getting at regarding tuition.

The point is, Troy, that the days of industries needing skilled laborers who develop those skills at varying levels over varying numbers of years (via apprenticeships or just the natural progression of moving up the ladder in the shop) are pretty much gone, thanks to a) technology and b) a worldwide workforce. Both of those things are completely out of the realm of domestic union control. This leaves the states to compete for a limited number of jobs of any quality in production facilities. The supply of labor exceeds the demand. When that's the case, the price paid for labor decreases. If you look at the Forbes list, you'll see that 9 of the 10 top states in terms of economic growth are those that are RTW. While not the only thing making the states attractive, it is part of a concerted effort to attract businesses.

Bob - thank you for clarifying. I knew your point was right there - I just wasn't getting it. It sounds valid though I think it may be more complicated than that. I have nothing to back that up, so I will concede your point with no argument.

Thanks again

No doubt it's more complicated than that, but in a nutshell, as determined by the post-size limits Patch allows, that's my take on it.

@Bob McBride....Let's talk about skill sets. Whether you like it or not, some skill sets can't be developed by taking two semesters and six months OJT. The building trades are a good example of training and experience. Skilled trades like electricians plumbers, pipe fitters, steel workers, HVAC mechanics, etc. all take years to be competent and must be licensed. Automation maintenance focused on robotics and machine programming requires extensive training and experience. The list goes on and on. One thing is abundantly clear, not all positions are simple plug in positions such as in assembly work.

I fundamentally don't disagree with your statement that labor needs to be organized in offshore countries to finally solve the problem, but that will be sometime in the future. Until then, we need to avoid driving a stake in the heart of labor. All it will do is push wages down lowering the standard of living and the value of labor.

I don't see the trades abandoning their unions, not only for the reasons you state, but because the work they do is location specific for the most part.

There are still plenty of unions in the private sector that serve no practical purposes beyond self-preservation. In my line of work, for instance, there are both union and non-union shops. The union shops tend to be at a greater disadvantage when it comes to meeting the needs of today's customers, because union regulations regarding the kinds of employees and employer may bring in to do ancillary work make these companies non-competitive with local and out of state, non-union competitors. These unions have an effective stranglehold on some of these businesses. In the last shop in which in worked, had the company attempted to even shut down the plant, it would have been subjected to a multi-million dollar forfeiture to the union that their employees belonged to in order to cover their removal from some union sponsored insurance program. The union itself served no particular purpose, as the skill set necessary to operate the current generation of manufacturing equipment was minimal.

Where unions have a natural foothold, RTW will probably not effect their ability to survive. Where they are an impediment to the successful operation of a business and, by rights, serve no practical purpose, they most likely won't. Which is as it should be.

We have to face facts. Lower wages are better than no wages.

I am in the private sector right now Young Conserva-Nazi. Thank you for the stereo type. Maybe think before you blog.

I have been working poor. There is nothing more demeaning than working 90 hour weeks at dirt poor wage stuck because there is no time to find anything better in a tough job market.

You obviously have never had to choose between what bill to pay and conditioned yourself to one meal a day because you just can't afford groceries

@Young Conservative....Your assumptions are incorrect. I retired in my late fifties after decades of successful businesses.

Lyle created a line on smokable clothing made of hemp.

I knew someone else who was overly fond of the word 'squalor' to describe people with modest incomes. How are you doing, Alfred?

I actually did work myself out of that job. Thank you, again for the stereo type. I also no longer live in "filth and squalor" also. So please, spare me your sermons or suggestions. You obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Young, never mind Nothought Troy or those like him. Their self hatred and self loathing is so apparent in their ramblings.

In their world, it's better to be poor, ignorant, and lazy than to be successful and productive.

@Young Conservative...You suffer from a common disease of the Nouveau Riche, crassness and a lack of real class.

Part of the concept of a Union Workforce isn't bad. Take for instance The Carpenters, or most of the trades in general. These are blue collar skilled jobs. The Union served as a pool of talent that was hired out to companies on a temporary basis to perform the required tasks. When the job was completed, the company released the workers back to the Union and the workers could go to another job. Companies contracted with the Union for this talent - and also supported the training of the workers. Workers were to be trained in a set program, and paid according to level of skill. It's actually a wonderful concept.

Skilled and properly trained union workers make a very good wage - as they should. However the unions have been corrupted by nepotism, unwarranted advancement, and a place for friends and relatives to get high paying jobs and be forced upon companies. That has destroyed the unions.

The problems with the dysfunctional unions led to competition - from non-union sources that pay less and hence project costs are lower. ABC is their growing competition: " Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) is a national association that advances and defends the principles of the merit shop in the construction industry and provides its members with an opportunity to succeed"

http://www.abc.org/

Continued

Government union employees are nothing like the original building trade unions. They are a group of government employees who engage in political activities to elect the people that promise them the most.

Government employee unions are NOT slavery - they are the En-Slavers. They hold communities and taxpayers hostage to their every demand - and need to be done away with and outlawed.

@ c...In many nations the professionals are unionized. However, most of those you mention must be licensed professionals. Are you going to employ an unlicensed architect to design your home? Physicians and other professionals have organizations that monitor standards and exert regulatory power. In the case of the skilled trades, I certainly don't want an inexperienced electrician working on my home's wiring. Unions have proven to be the best vehicle for training competent skilled tradespeople.

@Lyle, Training of tradesmen by the unions is long past. The unions produce the worst trained. Do you want an electrician working on your house that served his entire apprenticeship doing nothing but hanging pipe at some power plant? Never learned to bend pipe, never worked in a breaker panel and never got to troubleshoot anything because those jobs are only for the guys with seniority. If the unions went back to quality training programs maybe RTW would pose less of a threat.

You made that by making others poor.

Are you like young to the conservative ideas or just been working since you were 1 yo?

According to Lyle 99% of the work force wants to be unionized. Facts are only relevant if the liberal media reports them. When asked the workforce hates the idea of being in a union.

Public workers are the cause of global warming and need to be buried in the desert.

Public workers need to all be fired and re-hired at minimum wage.

No one will do the jobs? Pure BS.

Isn't that what illegal immigrants from South America were brought in for? South East Wisconsin is full of them - working for cash, running businesses - roofing, lawn service, painting, drywalling, framing, resturants, drugs, etc. etc.

Anything so that the cheap mass of Baby Boomers doesn't have to pay "living wages" for the services they demand in their old age.

The future of the youth of America has been mortgaged beyond what can be repaid. Time to offer the Boomers short-term, quick service palliative care and end the drag on the economy.

Wait, because if anything what politicians do is kick the can to the bitter end - then see what happens in bankrupt Detroit. There is no money magic tree in public employee fantasyland.

The lies from the Left never end. Replace Indiana with Racine, WI. in your last sentence, and you got some truth.

Anderson Indiana: And Mayor Kevin Smith, just re-elected last November, could not be happier with the ninth new company coming to Anderson in 10 months to join Nestle's and that big attraction, Hoosier Park, that also is just off I-69.

More than 50 people gathered at Anderson City Hall Tuesday to laud the HY-PRO move announced this week.Over the next three years, the company will invest $10.5 million to build a new headquarters and manufacturing facility to build what Aaron Hoeg calls "their stuff." The average pay of jobs is $21 an hour.

http://www.andersonfreepress.net/node/27780

Smith added that Hy-Pro is the ninth new jobs announcement his administration has made this year.

In July, Greenville Technologies Inc. unveiled plans to build a new $21.4 million plant here that’s expected to create 325 new manufacturing jobs.

A month later, Nestlè expressed interest in investing $166 million in its existing facility that would create an additional 104 jobs. A final announcement is pending approval from Nestlè’s European headquarters.

Also in August, a new company called Impact Container Inc., which makes specialized air cargo containers, chose Anderson for its new production facility. The company is expected to invest $1 million and create 175 jobs over the next four years.

Cont.

Interim Economic Development Director Greg Winkler said the numbers associated with those announcements include 1,067 jobs and $206 million in new investment in Anderson.

http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=299&ArticleID=67118

We can only dream of that - and what it would do to re-energize the dead zone called SouthEast Wisconsin.

Public Employees - Get you LOOT ON!

Big deal... That's one little town. I'm not saying that Wisconsin is getting any better. It's getting worse with the Rep in charge. We may soon look like Indiana. A lot of Indiana is just an extension of the worst of Chicago. If you truly believe that 1,000 jobs makes a difference, you're dreaming. You've got to improve the infrastructure of state and the educational system to have a successful future.

Big Deal? You bet it's a Big Deal. That's all you can say to defend your lies?

CLUE 1: Education is funded from the tax base. Growing the tax base = more money available for education. Economics 101.

From FORBES Magazine - you know, a hateful magazine dedicated to private business interests

"The biggest gainer in this year’s rankings was Indiana, which jumped 16 spots to No. 18. Indiana benefited from our inclusion of the regulatory component of the Freedom in the 50 States, which replaced a regulatory study from the Pacific Research Institute. Indiana ranked first on regulatory climate in the Freedom study. Indiana’s job outlook has also improved dramatically. A year ago, its five-year employment outlook was the worst in the U.S., but now it ranks in the top half of states, according to Moody’s Analytics."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2012/12/12/utah-tops-list-of-the-best-states-for-business/

All you got to offer is hysterics. Solutions take time - this is not TV.

The FIRST STEP for Wisconsin will be to go RTW. It will only get worse until RTW occurs - because WISCONSIN CAN'T COMPETE IN A 21st.C GLOBAL ECONOMY.

"Lyle, you brought out the "trolls" in force. They haven't had much meat to chew on lately. "

Vicki:

You often come across as an angry and bitter person. Please try to post without including put downs of others posting comments on the article.

@JMB....Income is not reasonable issue for voting. That is a poll tax, which is illegal. We all pay for those that can't afford to pay. I don't see the injustice in that, but see it as a duty. You're practicing "pocketbook morality".